From stopping immigration raids on their streets to building renters unions, people are organising in their communities to take collective action against poverty, policing and the hostile environment. As well as fighting to improve the conditions of our lives now, these are struggles for a different future - for economic justice, decolonisation and abolition.
In this podcast we explore the theory and practice of community organising, and its role in bringing about political transformation. In each episode we bring people together to discuss a different question about how we fight to change the systems we live in.
This 2-part conversation focuses on love as a political force, with Balraj and Nuradin from Kids of Colour, an anti-racist youth organisation in Greater Manchester.
In this episode we talk more about the role of art and culture, the crisis of growing fascism, and the importance of spaces for conversation, care and grief. We reflect on the years of work that has built community relationships against state violence in Manchester, and how this commitment to love can inform struggles for all our liberation.
Balraj:A lot of those people wouldn't have known each other before. And now they're like, going on coach trips to trials and appeals. Or there's people that turn up for other people's inquests and things. Just to show some support, you know, like on a Monday somewhere. And they'll come out and, and it's because they've felt that love.
[Music: Aum by K Monday]
Anna: Welcome back to part two of this Seeds for Change podcast, in conversation with Balraj and Nuradin from Kids of Colour, an anti-racist youth organisation in Greater Manchester. In part one, they introduced the Boys and Love project, where they run sessions with boys of colour in and outside of schools, exploring themes of love, solidarity, masculinity, feminism, and community. We talked about the oppressive environment of schools and the policing of racialised young people, and how to disturb those hierarchies and build solidarity. We discussed how dialogue sustains and transforms our communities, and thought about love as a humanizing force against state violence and punishment. In this episode, we talk more about the role of art and culture, the rise of fascism, the need for spaces of care and grief, and the years of work that has built community relationships against state violence in Manchester. Thanks for listening.
Balraj: It might be nice to chat a little bit more about some of the open sessions as well, because we've talked a lot about schools.
Nuradin: Yeah. Yeah, there is more flexibility, with, um, open sessions, to be able to go and see things as well, and to go with them to see things or talks or documentaries or film or piece of theatre. We, we taken, um, some of the boys, we took some boys a couple of months ago at the museum, Manchester Museum, who were showing a documentary about climate crisis from a black and brown perspective. So we'll go and take them. Last year we took a group to a play and a show at HOME theatre talking about colonialism, occupation, you know, apartheid, those things.
Balraj: Yeah, I, I think the art and drama, isn't it, and the theatre and, and looking at music and culture. I think those things are probably the key ways of like, I think engaging, if you wanna call it that, around that critical thinking. 'Cause I think it, yeah, it opens it up to a more interesting conversation in a way because it's less, like, lecture style vibes and a bit more like, what do you think to this? Or let's unpack that or like, let's have a look at what this is about. So yeah, I think there's some music we play and even the Len Johnson story is quite interesting because, you know, obviously he went to the Pan-African Congress and he was involved with a lot of activism, but he was also kind of, there was a colour bar and things, you know, and I think people really like that story of him because he was like, we've gone to a school in like Harpurhey before and like, you know...
Nuradin: North Manchester.
Balraj: Yeah, in north Manchester.
Anna: Do you wanna just say who Len Johnson was?
Balraj: Yeah, so he was a boxer who was Sierra Leonian descent and Irish descent, I think, in Manchester. And he was from North Manchester.
Nuradin: Clayton.
Balraj: He's from Clayton. And then he, he had an amazing fighting record, but he wasn't allowed to compete kind of professionally, I think, or in some of the like big titles because both your parents had to be white, basically. And so it's an interesting story around that racism as a, as an athlete. But then also he went on to then do like an action where he wasn't allowed to be served at the pub in Hulme. So he came back with like loads of people who like all demanded that he has to be served kind of thing. And then they ended up serving him. So it was kind of... and that's at the Old Abbey Taphouse, which was a venue in Hulme. And then, um, he also then became like a bit of an activist and ran for like MP and stuff like that.
Nuradin: Yeah.
Balraj: The Communist Party maybe, was it?
Nuradin: Yeah.
Balraj: But he ended up going to the Pan-African Congress as well. So it's kind of interesting, his... People really like the story 'cause we've got a track that we play that's like, by an artist from Old Trafford about that story. And then they just really identify with it as well because it's like local history and they like the music too. So it's like, you know what I mean? It's, I find it's an interesting format for that kind of thing sometimes. Playing music or having a little short video.
Anya: Yeah. I guess we've acknowledged the rise in fascism, um, and racism, that's in the current context right now. Um, what do you think the importance of having spaces for care and grief and love is? Um, especially given the current context?
Balraj: Yeah, I think it's really, really important. 'Cause I think especially with some of the older sessions that we run, there's some young people and boys who are quite like, actively involved with some movements as well. In some cases. And I think it's having that space where they can also be just young people and be able to like chill, like, have some food, have a bit of care. And be looked... almost like, looked after a little [00:05:00] bit for a few hours and kind of feel that love, I think is really important. Um, so that, that's something that I think we've definitely been noticing recently, um, given everything that's kind of been going on. And um, yeah, I think just coming together really when there's something going on locally, like whether it's, there's been a rise in attacks, for example. Um, we sometimes kind of had sessions like in the midst of attacks, like last August as well. In 2024. We had a session right in the middle of that period that was, was really, I think, a memorable one for us all. I think because it fell just when we really needed it, I feel like as well. And it was a session on love, as it happened to be, and self love.
Anna: That was like during the riots?
Balraj: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, during those attacks. Yeah. Um, and we also have been doing, I guess like sessions around current things that have been going on too, you know. Like around after the, the 'Unite the Kingdom' demo, I guess. Um. You know, and, and some of our young people have gone to kind of cases. They've gone along to appeals or cases and then now we actually have young people who are joining our sessions as well that have kind of come out of state prisons, I guess, really as well. And like are in, are in the room. So I think, I think those spaces as well for, to hold those young people and to kind of have a space to care and show them that love and solidarity I think is really, really, really important. Especially in the older group, it's something that is really beautiful to see, I think as well, because sometimes it's hard for us as well. Because we're kind of feeling it as well. But I think the other participants in those older sessions are able to like, hold it as well. And kind of show care and, and because they're the same age as some of those people as well, like, they are able to kind of relate and have a certain kind of amount of empathy and understanding, I think too. Yeah.
I think we're lucky as well that we are able to... well, maybe lucky is not the right word, but I guess we're glad we're able to support young people who have had to flee as well or have to come, yeah, had to find their way here. Um, and some of those might be Sudani young people or other East African young people or global majority people who, um, yeah, are able to come to sessions. But also, it's not like things are off the table that they can't chat about. You know, like, we are talking about those political things too.
Nuradin: Yeah, especially in the open sessions.
Balraj: Yeah, in the open sessions with the older group as well. So we had some people come in recent times and I think it's been, hopefully it's been useful for them as well. I think it has been. To be around other people and again, be shown that love and solidarity. So I think, yeah, we're never disconnected, I think, from what's going on kind of internationally really. Um, because it comes to here, doesn't it? You know what I mean? Like what's happening, what our government's doing. That whole thing of like, we're here because you were over there.
Nuradin: Yeah. Yeah. And it's that type of like conversations, which really like real conversations as well. But I also think it starts like with the whole organisation. Like we do... we're very close. We show love. We hold space for each other. For all of the madness and all of that. And the work that we're doing is resisting. And at times it's, you know, it's draining. It's hard. You know, racism is fucking exhausting. So it's the care. It's with the team. Like just checking with each other. How you doing, how you feeling today? Things that we are experiencing as well when we're out and about. Like witnessing police brutality and, and all of that in our communities, and overhandedness and seeing children and, you know, being accosted in that sense. So it never stops. The care and the love never stops. And yeah, me and Bal have been with the organisation for two and a bit years now, but it's the work that was done to establish the organisation, the collective work that's done and the things that are in place. To be able to, you know, show that care.
Another thing that we do as an organisation is a lot of the advocacy work. So advocacy work that we do, supporting families. Supporting families who have children, what I call in the 'criminal industry system'. Cause there's never been any 'justice'.
Anna: Yeah.
Nuradin: Yeah. Is a criminal industry system that literally vultures on vulnerable young, you know, racialized communities. So we always talk about it like white supremacy has no chill, it never has a day off. So yeah, you have to always have that joy as well. Like joy is a massive weapon in the resistance. And in care and in the love. Joy has to be at the centre of it. And, and we do that with all sorts of different things that we do with young people. We have solidarity days, we have joy events. Literally we call it joy events and sharing and music and poetry and whatever they want to share. So, yeah.
Balraj: Yeah, definitely. And I think also [00:10:00] as a team, so often, I think maybe there's a sort of a bit of a charity type of thing that sometimes can be quite... yeah, there's not always the care, I guess, for the staff in some, some cases in some organisations. Um, but it's different in our case. And I think that's also come through probably I think the collective work around, you know, policies around leave, like having unlimited leave. Like I think we were even like paid for our interviews when we were doing those. And kinda having a lot of care, like monthly meals, um, check-ins.
And I think actually, you know, we do serious work but we actually have quite fun times or there's sort of some silliness and stuff too. And it's not always always serious, but I think because we have to be. You know, it has to be, yeah, you know, the personal element is close, um, to be able to do this kind of thing and to be able to keep it together really. So I think it kind of balances out because there's, there's that closeness kind of as a, as a team, but also within the community, I think with the young people then as well. It kind of translates into that. Um, and we, we, you know, it's not separate, like sometimes we do see young people that we work with at spaces or at protests or, you know, like out and about things. And you know, that's kind of what, what a community is, isn't it really? You know, sometimes it's... We're always kind of hopefully learning, you know...
Nuradin: Yeah, the caring.
Balraj: Reciprocating the care. Yeah, you know what I mean?
Anna: I think it's really interesting what you're saying as well about like, the work that's been done to get to this point. Like what's been built over a long time. I was at the World Transformed, um, in October, which is like a political festival that happens every year. And I went to, yeah, loads of really amazing different sessions and stuff, but the best thing I went to was a session about people resisting policing and state violence. And so it was Zara and Roxy from Kids of Colour. Um, and other people from the Northern Police Monitoring Project. And then like several families that are involved in campaigns about state violence. So there was some people from campaigns about, um, joint enterprise and, End Police Pursuits, and people who, who had come into this through like family members that had been killed or, or were in prison. Also Ade was there as well from, from the Manchester 10.
Nuradin: Manchester 10, yeah.
Anna: Which we haven't actually talked about. But yeah, the 10, the 10 boys that were convicted for conspiracy charges, um, under kind of gangs arguments. And they were given, was it like 131 years prison sentences between them. Um, so Ade has obviously now been released and that conviction's been overturned and he was there speaking as well. And it was just amazing to hear these, these families speak and the kind of just the obvious like strength of the love between all of those people and the solidness and like power of like, the love that, that was in that room. That has like taken a long time. To, to kind of, um, become so strong. And I, I just, it made me think like, obviously this would be what the state would like despise. Do you know what I mean? Like the, the power of that is like, so obvious, when you're just like in a room with it.
And I think that it made me think about how much of like the political organising kind of on the left in this country, like really doesn't actually like, give that importance to relationships, give that commitment, deep commitment to like, the time it takes to, to build relationships, to build trust, to build love. And like actually the power that that holds and how important that is. So I, I found that really... like I, I took a lot from that. I learnt a lot from, from those people in the room. And like, I think that's an amazing contribution to like, a struggle for all of our liberation, that, you know, people who are like at the brunt of state violence can like, demonstrate exactly like the power of that.
Um, so yeah, it just made me think about that emphasis on like building relationships. Um, so yeah, I dunno my, what my question is, but maybe it's just like, particularly in relating to young people, that trust maybe feels like it could start from quite a difficult starting place to like build that. Um, and like maybe what, what do you think like is needed to do that?
Nuradin: Yeah, I think, yeah, definitely. I agree with you. On, on the left, there's, the love's not there. The love is not in the work. It's more bureaucracy. More about section two of the meeting says this, we have to do this. You know what I mean? It's more of this old school game that's being played about procedure, you know? This by this procedure, that procedure, and it's not love, and it's not really, really connecting with, with, with the people. But yeah, definitely. And I think people like Roxy and Zara and Mea, um, in our [00:15:00] team, they shine on the shoulders of giants. It's always, you know, black and brown women who, who've had to take that fight. Unfortunately, in this country. In the history of the people who are at the sharpest end of state violence. Which happened to be like global majority and black and brown people. Um, so they're incredible. And like you said, the families, like the collective experience and being with them, you know, like being there for their appeals for the Manchester 10. Being there, like the, the whole love and the families feeling that they're held and the strength they take from that, hundred percent, the state despises it. And it, it shows that, it shows the way it treats when we're in the courts, you know what I mean? And how, how oppressive those buildings are. And, and how those buildings are places where people's lives are ruined.
So, yeah. It's, it's incredible. I mean, to have somebody like Ade, who we, in the open Boys and Love session, he was inside when we were actually talking about... when we do the community love. So we talk about the Manchester 10, we talk about how the boys were in the Telegram chat. Like I think some of them might have been like five minutes in the, in the actual chat. And a lot of them were grieving the death that happened to one of their friends. And how then the state persecuted them because of that chat and built a whole case, this deeply, deeply like racist, like stereotyping and to prove that this is who those young boys are. And to wreck their lives. Like, but then for him, for Ade then to be in our session, you know, when he was ready after he had his conviction overturned, was one of the most powerful sessions I think that we've experienced. Like seeing him sharing that, honestly, the, you could feel the love and the care. And like he's incredible, obviously, as you witnessed, like sharing in his, his story and how, you know, the battle's still on.
Balraj: I think also we've been able to, we would've shown in our sessions, even in schools and things too, about the Manchester 10 case. And about the demos and the resistance, and we'll show kind of a picture of people together at St. Peter's Square, from a Kids of Colour demo, that was kind of done before I even worked at the organisation. But then now we have a clip to show of him on ITV Granada Reports. Um, and actually sometimes the students have often heard of the case, because it's so widespread and quite known. And, obviously having people in the room is, is, is very, very, um poignant and personal and, and kind of beautiful. Uh, it's also great I think to just, yeah, show those clips and then kind of have that example of like the work and kind of what can happen. 'Cause I think sometimes it can feel quite theoretical or academic. But actually, yeah, just forming those relationships and forming those connections.
And sometimes I think, what I would say is that I feel like I even sometimes felt a challenge I think around how I could maybe connect with people. Because I think sometimes there can be that thing that... a wedge maybe between... that you think that someone might see you a certain way or you might not be from the same community. So someone might think you're just coming in out of nowhere. But I think actually if you just show love and compassion and, and speak to someone even when they're in grief, like, and there was a really recent case that kind of we've been involved with in the summer, since the summer as well, um... I think it's, yeah, I've, I've kind of learned, I guess like over the last few years to kind of just be yourself and just, like, say what comes to mind. And that's better than maybe not saying anything and just being kind of silent and not knowing what to say because someone's in such grief. So I think there's that element of um, just sort of trying to be confident with it, even if it feels like something that isn't... I think it comes maybe quite naturally for some people, but then, um, I think we all have that ability though. To connect with, with people that are in grief. You know, and, and, and share those things. And even if it isn't quite right, I mean there isn't a right really is there, you know, when someone's gone through that. So just offering what you can.
And I think recently for me as well, I've been through sort of quite heavy losses as well and I've also received the same. So I've like, received a lot of, uh, I've received a lot of love as well, from, from members of my team, members of my community. And, um, I think it's just really, really well, like, well, it just reminds you that there are people around. You know, there's a lot of community around, that, that will support you and show up for you, even when you, you're not expecting it.
So I think, I think that's, that's what we can do. We can kind of model that sometimes. And yeah, it can be a bit of a challenge, but I think we can also, um, I think it means something to people though. You know, like even as you saw in that World Transformed session, a lot of those people wouldn't have known each other before. [00:20:00] You know what I mean? And now they're like, going on coach trips to UFFC or going to trials and appeals. Or sometimes you get, there's people that turn up for other people's inquests and things. Just to show some support, you know, like on a Monday somewhere. And they'll come out and, and it's because they have, yeah, they've felt that love, I guess. You know what I mean?
And I think, yeah, credit to everybody that's been involved all over the years. 'Cause like, like you said as well, I think it's, it's, it's something that Zara, Roxy and NPMP, End Police Pursuits and everybody have been doing. Um, Mea, you know, Remy, all the people involved with those campaigns and kind of like steady work over a really long period of time. That's really collaborative, really community orientated. You know what I mean?
I think it was, there is that piece of work, I think, maybe to be done around working class people that are white that are kind of being susceptible maybe to certain viewpoints perhaps, and finding that belonging. But I also think that's not necessarily something that we necessarily have the capacity to do, as we are, and that is our role necessarily. Um, but maybe it's something for organisations to take on. You know, I think there are organisations out there that could be doing that, some of that kind of work. But for us to do that would mean deviating from some of this work that we're doing, which I think is important already and we don't want to kind of, I guess... well I, I feel at the moment maybe it would be tricky to try and kind of deviate from that. There'd be the other people that would lose out from what we're doing, I guess. Yeah, hopefully there's people out there that can take on that kind of work, I guess really with, with, yeah.
Nuradin: I think that work is, is vital and that work needs to be done. Um, and I also just wanna call out like the classism, the toxic classism that takes place on social media. Um, when some of these really vulnerable people that who, you know, like, just like black and brown working class people are left behind, there are white working class people who are frustrated, who are angry, who are left behind, who are ignored by the state, who are constantly being encroached on in terms of funding for things or the cost of living crisis, the austerity that which we've been in for years and years. The ongoing austerity. Back in the day, it was like we used to be just in austerity for certain couple of years and then we come out austerity. No, this has been ongoing since 2008, nine. And the demolition of communities really, like pubs, like, you know, high streets that are local, like the, you know, the kind of the vulture hyper real estate capitalists who are encroaching and, and how expensive the foods is, but the renting and all of that kind of stuff.
So people who are not engaged in terms of a lot of the political things, I think there are the real fascists and I think it's really difficult to try to save some of those fascists, and I don't hundred percent believe that it's the work of any black and brown people. There might be some who've got the energy to be able to do that, because racism itself is fucking exhausting. You know what I mean? Trying to fight it is exhausting, but I really think that white working class, certain people are, can be reachable.
And in terms of the thing about the left is that people need to put their mouths, other than just having this intellectual discourse, people need to be in communities and actually listen. And learn. And hear what the struggles, what is affecting those people and what's turning them. Because the messaging from the right, it's so simple and it's always been the same way, it's blame people who you share more in common with. You know what I mean? It is the like now it is the billionaire class telling the millionaires through the media to tell the working class people to hate each other and to, to be able to divide. So that work needs to be done.
But the biggest thing for me in terms of, I think last summer was a, a wake up call. I think it's always been bubbling underneath the surface. If you pay attention how the media has moved, how certain politicians have been. The discourse at the top level of politics, and the media and the political class in this country, to always scapegoat for the crash that happened in 2008 and nine, was always gonna come down to being the black and brown people. 'It's because we've got too many people here.' It's because the, you know, the, the racism that entrenched and the white supremacy that the establishment always leans on and liberalism always leads on. It's that, and that's what we're seeing.
So for me, the, the love doesn't really come like too hard for me because I lived in a community where it was constantly, you know, I've lost friends, you know, to the system. I've lost, you know, there are friends who are coming out now from unjustly being put in prison, you know, I've been across state violence, you know, I've experienced some state violence, you know what I mean? So. The, the love and solidarity is there, you know what I mean? And, and it's community. Like I grew up, like I came to Moss Side growing up in Moss Side. I think it must have been nine [00:25:00] years after the uprisings in 1981 and I came in 1990. So there was this still community kind of resilience and...
But then I see a lot of that aspect of certain part of the community, like being superly co-opted into the system and, and like, because the way the fundings have been, you know, fundings to local communities or local area, uh, the way that they're structured, and certain people have lost the radical aspect of it. And there's some things that I see now, especially like in terms of like collaborating with police and stuff like that, that I detest. And yeah, that I would never understand. Because police never make any of us safe. They're here to brutalize. I, I don't know what's an individual person's heart, but I know for a hundred percent that adult has joined that organisation knowing what that organisation and their institution is about. They're here to look after capital and to protect capital. You know, they're not, they don't care. You know, they have no care. It's exactly the same thing as when you get some of these politicians talking about, oh, we've had to invade Afghanistan because we care about Afghani women.
Anna: Yeah.
Nuradin: Like, what's this insult to people's intelligence? So for me it's about if the community, if there's no love and care, then there's no community for me. And it's also learning from the historical mistakes around organising against the structural and systemic, uh, oppressions. And learning from the past and learning about the misogyny or the homophobia that could have existed or the, you know what I mean, in those spaces. Like in the history. Or having a more of a, like intersectional dynamic to it and where care and love and rest are as vital as being in the forefront fighting. So those things are so essential and, and important, I think. And, and hearing people and accepting like the differences within the movement as well.
But yeah, like I said, for me it's, I've been wanting to work with the organisation for this and I remember what I said in my interview. I've been waiting for Kids of Colour. Like I've been waiting for you, for this organisation. Um, having worked in the in the arts for a long, for a couple of years. Bal was doing, obviously he's an artist and he's a producer and he's also a DJ, and he was doing all of that type of work. And even in that work, there was a lot of love and care in the way you do. And that's how we met. You know, I met Bal trying to rewind one of his tracks because I, I, I, yeah, I get, um, quite high and connect to music on a spiritual level. And, and I think Bal can recall this kind of like crazed mad man coming to his set and trying to like, get him to reload. But, but you know, the night that you guys did in that, like was to create a space for joy and for dancing. And I, and I would always go. Because there was certain things that I was feeling, like working for institutions. Like the oppressive nature of institutions being, uh, you know, racialized and not many black and brown people are visibly working in cultural art spaces. Like, I needed... I needed a place to release. Like, so it's interesting that throughout we've always been doing the love and care. But then now we are in an organisation that, where we get to practice that on multiple different kind of levels. Yeah.
For me, I'll say that it was really good when you asked for us to do this. Um, we definitely, yes, said yes because we're aware of the work that Seeds for Change do, and we're in the same fight. For the collective liberation and building solidarity and you know, reaching out. So, yeah. Big up the Seeds for Change.
Balraj: Yeah, yeah, big up you lot.
Nuradin: Big up.
Anna: Thanks so much to Balraj and Nuradin for speaking to us today. Seeds for Change provides training and resources and workshops to grassroots groups, so get in touch with us if you want any support. The links to all the groups that we've shouted out today, Kids of Colour, um, Northern Police Monitoring Project, the End Police Pursuits campaign, um, all the groups that are involved in this work, you can find underneath the episode on our website. Uh, so shout out to all of them. And thanks for listening.
